Great Wall has responded angrily to Fiats accusations yesterday that Great Wall copied the Fiat Panda. A Great Wall spokesman had this to say:
“It took us three years and 300 million yuan (HK$309.7 million) to develop the Peri,”
According to Great Wall, the delay of the Peri model is due to the Chinese authorities being slow at providing the production license for this model. Great Wall says the Peri model will be delayed until early next year due to the paperwork delay, but one the models are rolling down the production lines, Great Wall says they will roll out the Peri in China and 80 other countries, including Italy. The Peri is expected to go up against the likes of the Chery A1 in China, and will thus be priced at the sensible 40, to 50,000rmb price bracket.
Weel this car looks a lot like the Fiat Panda Monster, check it out
http://www.marathonrally.com/news/uploads/pics/060302_fiat_panda_cross.jpg
…a little difference in the double front lights. If there is something Italians are proud of is their Car Industry, especially with Fiat group wich happens to be the owner of Ferrari, Masserati, Alfa Romeo and Lancia. If they find in their market a product that Fiat claim to be a copy I dont think is going to make it at all, not only in Italy but in the rest of Europe where Fiat have years of tradition an where buy one of their cars is not expensive at all. Bad move for great wall in Europe, South America would be a much better market for them.
I honestly cant see what they’ve copied from the pictures supplied so far, unless you can say they’ve copied the idea of making a ’soft roader’
Maybe Great Wall is telling the truth and they didnt copy, this kind of things always happens in design, sometimes when you think your design is original you find something similar or even worse exactly the same. But the thing is, if Fiat claim this is a copy, when the Peri try to find a place in the European market it could find a huge obstacle to save, the Fiat tradition in the market and probably a descredit advertising campaign, wich is very difficult to go thru if your brand is not strong enough.
mate thats a stupid logic. By that sense Ford can claim that every mass produced car with replacebale parts after the T-model is a copy ans should fail. Well all designs thereafter have doors a steering wheel and 4 wheels, i find that distinctively similar.
An whats with Italian sense of arrogance? first in soccer and now in cars. Too much hype around italian cars i’d say. and their football team is a bunch of free falling gutless pretty boys - they robbed us of our quater final place in germany!!!
JOHNSON…not stupid logic at all when you finally understand what Im talking about. When I talk about DESIGN Im refering to the aspect of the car, we all are humans with head, arms, legs, etc but we all are individuals with particular aspects.
The Italian pride and arrogance is something very well known in all the world when it comes to their products and design in general, I was living there for a while and I could experience this with my own eyes.
About the market, as you do, I also hate to admit that I have been working in advertising for more than 10 years and I know how tough could be a brand attacking it competitors, is never easy for a new brand get into a new market specially when will be competing with a very traditional and stablished local brand. That was my point in the comment.
BEST REGARDS!
ur talking about aspects of market penetration, not whether or not the car is a copy? because i do believe if Fiat goes on record in an advertising campaign suggesting the car is a copy when its not, then GW will have a significant case for defamation. Granted i am no marketing guru, but perhaps u ca give us an instance of how Fiat can properly claim its a copy should they infact loose their court case without infringing on the law of defamation? No doubt marketing penetration will be hard for GW, hence the low price, but all of ur argument of Fiats product design, its discrediting campaign presumes that GW will loose the case, does it not?
Whilst my comment was based on the fact that GW will probably not loose the case and hence if Fiat still insists on saying the car is a copy then Ford might as well insist that all cars are copies of its T-model.
When you do talk about design and aspect of design, please be specific as to what your refering to, or indeed what Fiat may be refering to. Because the last time i checked, dimensions or proportions of a car’s design is not unique. so yes, let us know what aspects you are talking about first. My comment was from a legal perspective, that is, the car’s appearance, on the whole.
There are millions of ways in marketing and advertising to attack an oponent avoiding a defamation case, its an everyday thing, giving the details about how Fiat could do it would take too much lines in this place. Anyway based in the facts, Fiat dont have case at all, its pretty obvious that the car is not a copy regardless of waht Fiat claims, actually if you read one of my comments before I said I would like to work in the Ad campaign for Great Wall in Europe. Another thing I said is I take back what I said about a hard fight for Great Wall, as I read in one the Italian websites the contumers are looking forward for this chinese product.
In my original comment I was very especific when I said that it happens all the time when you design something that you think is oiginal and something similar is already out there, and how hard could be for GW to penetrate…
I think all this was a big misunderstanding between us…
I think all this was a big misundertanding between us, I dont think Fiat is going to win at all, I dont think GW
FIAT is going to win this copyright case because GREAT WALL have reverse engineered the Fiat Panda. The Peri’s body panels, parts (especially interior) and even body structure/platform are idential to Fiat’s Panda. The whole design was based on Panda!!!!!
FIAT will not just sit back and let Great Wall benefit from Fiat’s many years of hard work in designing the Panda.
In South America there is a law in advertising communications that regulate the way you use to mention your competition brand, to avoid unfair descredit, but in Europe (except UK) is very different, if they feel they have to mention your brand to say that is rubbish they will do it, and if is a matter of pride is even worse. Anyway it would be very intresting to see what kind of estrategy Great Wall will be using to launch their products in Europe. Actually I would like to work in their Ad campaign for Europe, seems it would be a very challenging project.
Which side is telling the truth. It seems like Great Wall is really angry now.
I agree with Mudosanto that sometimes same designs happen unintentionally, and I think this is not the only case, there are some cases out there with famous with similar body shapes and sides but they do not bother to dig it out because they have strong brand positions. I guess Chinese carmaker is an easy target to pick on because of the reputation of having many “lookalikes” . But the Fiat side does admit that there are differences between the Fiat Panda and the Great Wall Peri.
Can someone posts the pics of the sides, back of Fiat Panda and Great Wall Peri, so we all can have a closer examination please ? (thank you)
@mudosanto
I don’t know about other European countries but in the UK, Fiat is not that widely present, you can hardly spot any Fiat cars, maybe 1 or two if you are lucky, it seems to me that the roads of London are dominated by French and Japanese cars and quite a lot of BMW as well.
Yes Fiat is a legend in Italy but I don’t know about other European countries. I like Italian car designers a lot, they have a lot of good looking designs
Yes, the Italians have excellent designs and this is why Great Wall decided to use Fiat’s Panda model as their “new” small car. Especially with Panda being voted European Car of the Year in 2004, the highest motoring award, it was Great Wall’s top choice to copy!
Found this side by side comparison.. similar but not 100%.
http://autonovita.blogosfere.it/2006/12/la-great-wall-peri-simile-alla-fiat-panda-ti-fa-incavolare.html
Didn’t Fiat almost go under not that long ago??
I was reading the comments in the post linked above by woxihuanpijiu and the Italians are pretty much waiting for the Chinese product, their general comment is that even when the car could have some similarities (not copy) they would prefer buy the Peri because of the price (they kind of hope it would be cheap) and because the quality of the small Fiats like the Panda have decayed and they are way too overpriced for a local product. Some people even say that the Peri is more beautiful than the Panda.
So I take it back, in fact Italians are waiting for the Peri, wich is not a copy, could be same or better quality than the Panda for a lot less money.
Thanks for that link woxihuanpijiu, that clarifies a lot about the opinions of the costumers, who at the end of the day have the last word.
http://www.autoblog.it/post/10857/fiat-cita-legalmente-great-wall-per-il-clone-della-panda
What are the Italian sorts saying here, in the comments section?
Overly positive or negative?
My Italian is not perfect but the literal translation is this one:……..
“Fiat is making their lawyers work hard in order to block the commercialization of the Great Wall Peri, a clone of the 4×4 Panda which should debut in the local chinese market and in the future be exported. Even when the chinese insist in the originality of the project, Fiat aim to the fact that except for the front rear the vehicle is at all identical to the Panda. At the moment the launch of the Peri, anticipated for the end of October have suddenly being delayed, we will see if this clone (not the first one from the chinese producers) will really have any buyers.”
Very negative article against Great Wall and the Chinese car industry in general.
ah thanx woxi
after taking careful look, I have to say one thing : How did Fiat come to the conclusion that the body is the same ?
I think like many people they see the first pics and assume its a copy because its Chinese instead of waiting for more information and making a more well informed decision like you are doing.
The roofline and doors do look very similar but I think the front section and rear C-pillar look a lot better on the Peri. The Fiat looks dated and that piece of rear glass looks a bit 80ish.
The car on the right (not sure if its a Peri too) does look more similar to the pic Mundosanto posted but again the Fiat looks a bit different in the frontal area.
Don’t think that Fiat was a loose cannon in throwing down this challenge to GW. It’s been a while since it first appeared. I’m guessing the Fiat legal department must be going by some globally-recognized automotive IPR criteria. Does anyone know where such criteria can be found…somewhere online perhaps?
As for Toyota and Jonway, I think the former just prefers to keep a low profile and get on with gaining more and more market share.
there is no global IPR per se. it is administered via WIPO and intenrational law. but the thing with international law is that you have to be a signiatory to be bound by it. And that even if u are a signiatory, both parties need to consent before it goes to a international court or arbitration. Thus, the most practicle level of enforcement of IP is national judiciaries pursuant to international agreements or national laws. hence they are hardly ever IPR cases at the ICJ. but by all means check www.wipo.org for more info on IP. But do read between the lines, because many countries are not part of WIPO, or part only to a certain degree so WIPO by no beans serves as international consensus on most issues.
I didn’t really know much either so had to have a look for some pics of both. I do think the Peri looks better than the Fiat. From the front I thought it had more in common with a Nissan Tiida with a new bonnet http://www.carhouse.com.hk/admin/05gtiida1.JPG
Hi guys, been following CCT for some time, but this is my first post…
I don’t know if Fiat have a strong enough case for going to court, and copying a shape has not much to do with stealing the blueprints (or CAD files), which I don’t think happened here. But you just can’t deny that the Panda is the “source of inspiration” for the Peri, both inside and out (don’t know how to post pictures here, but if you find pix of the dashboard of the Peri, you’ll see it’s very very similar to the Panda).
And dimensions (in cm):
Panda LxHxW 354×158x154, wheelbase: 230
Peri LxHxW 355×158x154, wheelbase: 230
But in the end I must admit the Peri is better looking than the Panda.
At least the urban version, that is.
The SUV… yuk!
“chinacarfan” your obviously going to support Great Wall with a name like that, regardless of the fact they copied Panda’s general design. Oh and I think the Panda looks far better than the Peri because it’s TRUE ITALIAN DESIGN!!!!!!!
Thank you Johnson for shedding valuable light on the topic. Previous challenges by foreign automakers all seemed to have gone through the Chinese courts…most unsuccessfully I might add.
Great Wall’s early copying of Toyota and Isuzu designs was understandable, but the same approach with its newest models surprises me. I must say that it has undercut my respect for this well known automaker. Its lively competitor Zhongxing, seems to be more mindful of such IPR pitfalls.
OK……..they’re close - REALLY close…..but no more close in appearance than say, the Buick HRV and the BYD F3R - or the Toyota Corrolla and the BYD F3. I don’t see MAJOR GLOBAL powers like GM or Toyota taking on BYD in court, so I can’t really see Fiat winning a court battle against Great Wall. It looks to me like this is primarily a negative publicity campaign prior to the Peri’s introduction in Europe, and I must say that I’m surprised (pleasantly surprised) at Great Wall’s vigorous defense of themselves. There’s NO DOUBT that the Peri was “inspired” by the Panda….but then again the Camry was inspired by the Accord, the Camaro was inspired from the Mustang, on and on……..Fiat can yell and scream all they want - the Peri IS going to be sold and for the price (at least the price in China) it’s a hell of a deal. If it’s built as decently as the Hover it will be a BIG hit here in China.
uau!
that’s some unbiased comment!
if ashley can “honestly” not see the copy, it’s better that he start a a business trading cakes, not cars… the side body structure (that is, the difficult and expensive thing to design) is the same, and i’m ready to bet that the floor is the same. then of course the lamps are different (the rear ones are from nissan…), and some sheet-metal are different, but the development of this parts is quite easy (and un-expensive, and risk-free) job.
joninchina: if you think that the hover is “decently built”, can you please tell me which is a car “well built” and which is a “poor quality” car? please consider that i live in china as well, and know a little this market…
best
I think thats a question for Dog Tucker….
I just relay the news, baby.
if Peri is a copy of Panda. Then what can we say about these ?
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/10/23/146197.1-lg.jpg
http://www.calcruising.com/lexusls460.jpg
It’s not just about “looks”. It’s about identical parts and structure. The Peri’s doors and dashboard have come straight from the Panda, and that’s not all!!
If Peri is a copy of Panda. Then what can we say about the Mercedes S Class and the Lexus Ls
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/10/23/146197.1-lg.jpg
http://www.calcruising.com/lexusls460.jpg
If Peri is a copy of Panda. Then what can we say about the Mercedes S Class and the Lexus Ls. Please check up the pictures of those 2 for yourself. So shouldn’t Mercedes be suing Lexus and Lexus be suing Mercedes ? I see Fiat is getting funnier and funnier by the days.
Maybe Fiat is trying to get all the free publicity it can by milking the situation more and more. Problem is, people will look at the Peri as well and that will give Great Wall even more attention than Fiat being a cry baby…
No, Great Wall are getting bad publicity in this case. In fact, the public will be against Great Wall for taking advantage of Fiat’s work. Anyway, I strongly believe that Fiat will win the case and Peri will not be produced at all or sold in Europe.
For all those how just want to believe the GW Peri is not a copy of the Fiat Panda, take a look at this:
This is an overlay of The Peri and the Panda. The orange parts don’t fit, all the rest does. These are two nearly identical cars. But then of course - this might affend some people - a lot of Chinese cars are copys of European or Japanese cars. I truly believe China will become a leading nation in automobile industry, but they got a long way to go.
I dont know if the picscript worked, so here you can find the picture of the overlay:
http://static.autoblog.nl/images/wp2007/Great%20Wall%20Peri.jpg