Great Walls plans for European expansion by using its newest mini car, the Perry, have been thwarted after a court in Italy declared the Fiat Panda, and the Perry are too alike.
TURIN — A Turin court ruled this week that a Chinese minicar built by independent automaker Great Wall won’t be allowed into Europe.
The court said the GWPeri minicar is too similar to the Fiat Panda.
Fiat sued Great Wall both in Italy and in China. Those moves were aimed at keeping the GWPeri out of the European Union and out of China. Fiat alleged that the car was a clone of its Panda minicar.
On July 16, a Turin court accepted Fiat’s claims, saying in its ruling “the (GWPeri) doesn’t look like a different car but is a (Fiat) Panda with a different front end.”
The court ruled that Great Wall should pay a 15,000-euro fine for the first GWPeri imported in Europe. In case of further violations of the ruling, the fine grows to 50,000 euros per imported car.
Lawyers for Great Wall said the company will appeal the Turin court decision.
The court case in China is still pending. Earlier this year, Great Wall starting selling the GWPeri in China.
Fiat doesn’t sell the Panda in China. The car has been Europe’s best selling minicar since 2004.
China Car Times has a review of the Great Wall Perry coming soon, so stay tuned!
And rightly so. Claiming that a BYD F1 or a Great Wall Pery does not look like a Toyota Aygo or Fiat Panda, is just insulting the intelligence of any person.
Just stop copying the stuff literally and start making some original stuff like Briallance does. Follow the good example.
And make sure it is safe! (Euro End Cap 5 stars will do)
I don’t think the Peri is that similar to the Panda that it should be banned from Europe. This sounds more like protectionism of the kind the Europeans used to pull against the Japanese.
Paul, everything on the peri looks very much alike the Panda, except for the front bumper, not to mention even the interior.
ProChinese, if Paul’s comment is a quote from an average intelligence person then Great Wall are right to be annoyed. However I think Paul has not actually looked at the pictures, especially of the interior. The BYD F1 and Great Wall Peri Peri are blantant ripoffs. And as for the claims of protectionism, er yes….protecting the IP of the manufactuer who invested millions making the car only to see a company rip it off and spend a fraction on a production line is something that should be done! This ‘protectionism’ hardly damaged the Japanese motor industry now did it, correct me if I am wrong but don’t the Japanese has the most profitable and largest car industry in the world right now?? Oh…..well thought up comments Paul.
This news reveals the difficulty that Chinese faces in entering developed markets.
It does cost at least $500 million to develop a US and Euro-market ready car, but only a couple of Chinese auto firms have the ability to spend $500 million on the development of single model.
Chinese automakers will make their greatest impact at home and in developing markets, no doubt. But you won’t see too many Chinese cars on American and European roads a decade from now. Basically, the entry door for those markets shut with the last entry of Koreans in the mid 90s.
@ Anthony
> This ‘protectionism’ hardly damaged the Japanese motor industry now did it
Japanese cars were better than European cars by the time they arrived in Europe.
> if I am wrong but don’t the Japanese has the most profitable and largest car industry in the world right now??
Japanese consumers don’t care about price; they prioritize quality and performance the most when they shop for a product, be it a lunchbox bento, TV set, or a car. This was the primary driving factor behind the rise of world-famous “Japanese quality”, Japanese consumer’s willingness to pay for quality.
Now, ask yourself if the same shopper’s mentality applies to the Chinese consumers. In other word, do Chinese consumers care more about price or quality? Are Chinese consumers will to pay double the price for higher quality?
If Chinese consumers aren’t willing to pay for quality, then Chinese goods will never arise out of their current “cheap goods” status.
Fair point I Hate China, it is all up to the Chinese consumer and manufactuer. But as we can see with the rise of luxury good consumption in china that there is a desire for quality. But Japan used to make cheaply assembled and crappy cars back in the 50’s and 60’s and in order to compete became quality makers of dull cars and has now moved onto to quality makers of great cars. Took 40 years to happen. Korean cars are now moving into quality makers of cars after going through the cheap and crap …. they are around 20 years behind Japan. Chinese cars are in the intial stage of cheap and crap, but you know…I have a feeling the Chinese will make the jump to quality far sooner than Korea and Japan did.
@ Antony
> But as we can see with the rise of luxury good consumption in china that there is a desire for quality.
I am not talking about just luxury goods, but everyday small things, like a pencil, eraser, cake(Japanese call it “sweets”), lunchbox. You can see amazing quality embedded even in small things like that, and that pursuit of quality is the very part of Japanese culture.
> Korean cars are now moving into quality makers of cars after going through the cheap and crap ….
This is Korean consumers too have become largely price-insensitive, and this has been a critical factor in upscaling of Korean product over the past decade. Note that Hyundai’s best sellers in their home market are likes of fully-loaded Azeras, Genesis, and Veracruz in $35K~$60K price brackets, not $10K Accents. Accordingly, Hyundai’s putting all the effort on high-end models while ignoring
The end result is that high-end Hyundai models are winning rave reviews in the US, while their attention-starved low-end models languish.
> but you know…I have a feeling the Chinese will make the jump to quality far sooner than Korea and Japan did.
The problem is that Chinese have been practicing a capitalist market-driven economy before Jesus’s time and they are firmly embedded into Chinese culture. In other word, the shopping habits of Chinese consumers are entirely price driven, preventing the emergence of world-class quality product from China at higher prices.
Completely wrong. You think you know Chinese people so well, but judging from my time living as a ex-pat Brit in Hong Kong, that’s completely opposite of what I have observed of Chinese people. In fact, they are most definitely (the ones who can afford it), going to buy on quality (perceived or otherwise) and are extremely price INsensitive.
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Just look at what Taiwan and Hong Kong is like and you can understand what China could’ve been without communism and the cultural revolution. Insatiable appetite for all things luxurious and definitely even DAILY consumption. They gobble things up like Japanese snacks with their triple boxed packaging like no tomorrow. Unbelievable appetite for pointless things that are far more expensive than what is available from the Mainland. There are “organic” local markets that flourish by selling organic locally grown vegetables for at least triple the price of whatever produce is available from China. There are tons of what tout themselves as the bakeries of old that sell traditional Chinese bakery goods for $50-60 hkd a piece. Kids line up for days or even pay their domestic workers to go line up for the latest tees from the infamous “EDC” that are $500-600hkd a pop. Try having British-style afternoon tea at any hotel or cafe, you’ll see it packed to the brim with people willing to pay $100 HKD a person just to have a finger cucumber sandwich and tea. You won’t believe the consumption ability of the non-mainland Chinese. So, excuse my language, but what the fuck have you been smoking?
> Just look at what Taiwan and Hong Kong is like and you can understand what China could’ve been without communism and the cultural revolution.
And what world-class quality goods came out of Taiwan and HK? Where are Taiwan and HK manufactured cars? If Taiwan and HK represent the future of China, then you can be sure China WILL NOT become a global auto export machine like Japan and Korea before them.
As for Chinese consumer’s consumption practices, I am talking about general population, not the few richest. Go to Chinatown and they are known for bargains and frugal shopping. Heck, I frequent Chinatown just for cheap eating afterwork(I work at Wall Street as a software developer) and Chinese food are known to be cheap, while Japanese food will put a big dent on your wallet even for something as simple as ramen and gyudon.
Chinatown and Little Tokyo in same city represents the central theme of both cultures. China stands for “cheap and value-oriented”. Japan stands for “expensive and quality-oriented”.
Trust me, it’s not just the “elite rich” in Taiwan and HK that have these kind of behaviors. Of course the POOR can’t possibly enjoy this life style, but in general, the population is very quality/luxury oriented. Why do you think Japanese goods are so popular? In fact, I find HK has a culture very similar to Japan, and is evolving every year. It used to be far more back water in the 80s, but it is changing rapidly since the 90s. It has completely skipped the heavy-industries phase and gone straight from low-cost manufacturing into a service/financial powerhouse. As you work in Wall St (although in software), you should see the importance in that.
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HK and Taiwan both lack the political and economic infrastructure to act as a complete state, and particularly in Hong Kong’s case, there is no need to pursue heavy industries. After all, it’s merely a city-state entity. In addition, both are constantly under the shadow of political unrest due to the threat from the mainland. Because of a lack of international support, Taiwan’s politics are left in-fighting to find out a way to best deal with the Mainland. Their economy is also hindered by being isolated from the international community and lack the sheer size required to dominate in heavy industries. Yet they were able to sustain their own international brands such as Acer, Asus, Foxconn, etc.
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Regardless, the desire for quality is there in their culture, which is, as you say, one of the key necessities to strong local brands.
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Your use of local Chinatowns as a proxy for the culture is flawed. The immigrants who headed out west in the 1800s came from frugal and meagre backgrounds. Of course it is value-oriented. If you ever visit the “new-wave” immigrant areas you could also see how they focus on “quality”. Just visit Toronto. That said, I frequent Toronto quite a bit, and the Korean-town also embodies the same value-oriented mindset you speak of: big plates of food, at prices that can’t be beat.
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But then again, just looking at your user name shows that there is no point in arguing with a bigot like yourself.
> Trust me, it’s not just the “elite rich” in Taiwan and HK that have these kind of behaviors.
What you claim isn’t supported by demonstrable evidence, such as observable lack of Chinese luxury brands, and the lack of Chinese products that compete on quality and instead of price.
> the population is very quality/luxury oriented. Why do you think Japanese goods are so popular?
And why the lack of high-priced Chinese goods that compete solely on quality alone?
> HK and Taiwan both lack the political and economic infrastructure to act as a complete state
HK, maybe. Taiwan, absolutely not.
> and particularly in Hong Kong’s case, there is no need to pursue heavy industries.
Geely is technically based in Hong Kong. And Geely is the best Hong Kong has come up with.
> In addition, both are constantly under the shadow of political unrest due to the threat from the mainland.
And what does that have to do with an auto industry?
> Yet they were able to sustain their own international brands such as Acer, Asus, Foxconn, etc.
These guys compete on price, not quality.
> Regardless, the desire for quality is there in their culture, which is, as you say, one of the key necessities to strong local brands.
The lack of strong local Chinese brands charging premium prices at or above Japanese prices does not support your claims about alledged Chinese consumer’s supposed hidden desires for quality product.
> Your use of local Chinatowns as a proxy for the culture is flawed. The immigrants who headed out west in the 1800s came from frugal and meagre backgrounds. Of course it is value-oriented.
People who live in Chinatown are recent arrivals. You won’t find 3rd or 4th gen Chinese Americans here, except maybe as landlords.
> If you ever visit the “new-wave” immigrant areas you could also see how they focus on “quality”.
It’s the new-wave that are penny-counters.
I will give you the strongest evidence of Chinese consumer’s preference for price over quality. Chery QQ outsold Chevrolet Spark 3:1 in China, in spite of Spark being the original product with better reliability and a much stronger “American” brand(American brand does matter a lot in China. Just look at Buick). Why? Because Chinese consumers weren’t willing to pay the 30% price premium for a Spark over QQ. Had this been the case in Japan or Korea and piracy allowed(Of course there is no auto piracy there), then the higher priced original model would have outsold the cheaper clone 10:1 or better.
It is precisely because of the desire for quality that drives people away from Chinese products. Because China, and particularly HK and Taiwan are all extremely open to imports, anyone who wants something of quality goes for imports because of its assured quality.
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As you say, Korea and Japan succeeds due to its protectionist measures. Without these high import tariffs, people have no incentive to go with an unknown local brand. If someone wanted a quality bag, for argument’s sake, why would you go with a local brand that has to charge the same price for such high quality if I’m unsure of its actual level of quality if a Hermes bag is available for the same price. Now,if the import had tariffs of say 100% that made a significant price difference, then someone would go out and try the local brand and notice that it does indeed perform quite well. But without this, there is no incentives for locals to start up anything of quality as that market is completely saturated in Greater China. Every luxury market is completely cornered by foreign companies. The easiest way in is to compete on price as there is little to no product differentiation.
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If people had no preference for quality or brands, why even buy Buick? Just buy a piece of shit Chery and forget about buying a Buick. Why do you think Civics and Corollas are such big sellers? People who buy the QQs are the ones who can’t afford even a Spark.
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American Chinese immigrants in the Chinatown all come from the same under-educated pool of laborers in China that fit in well with the chinatowns of yore. If you ever visit Taiwanese or HK neighborhoods in the west, the preference for quality is evident. Mercs, Lexus and BMWs everywhere even if they aren’t wealthy because of the perceived quality of such brands.
And hah, I just realized you actually said that Taiwanese electronics compete soley on price. I wonder why people lap up the Touch Diamond for $700 a piece when the iPhone 3g is selling for $200 USD.
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Sometimes I can even sympathize with your blind hatred for mainland China as I also much prefer to be in Taiwan or Hong Kong, but wow, your absolutely ignorant hatred of all things related to Chinese culture and ethnicity is shocking, and also somewhat amusing. It’s worse than Jeremy Clarkson’s hatred of the French.
Hey I find it hard to believe too that our “Wall Street software developer” who prefer “quality” Korean products (sorry I just bumped my head against the wall, really sorry) usually visit Chinatown for “Cheap food” (well what does that say about him lol ).
Hey how much does it cost for 8 portions of Dim Sum in NY or any American cities ? cos here in the UK it costs around £35 for 8 portions.
@Aron
> It is precisely because of the desire for quality that drives people away from Chinese products.
Then high-priced high quality Chinese brand goods should be flying off the shelves in China. They aren’t.
> why would you go with a local brand that has to charge the same price for such high quality if I’m unsure of its actual level of quality if a Hermes bag is available for the same price.
Consumers aren’t stupid. They know a quality good when they see it, and will buy it if they are really after that quality good. If quality is what they are after, that is.
> Every luxury market is completely cornered by foreign companies. The easiest way in is to compete on price as there is little to no product differentiation.
If Chinese consumers in general are really after quality, then those bargain-based Chinese brands would start releasing higher-quality, higher-end product after their brands become better known and their manufacturing skills improve, and Chinese public would suck them up. But this “upscaling” process that has taken process in Japan and Korea is not happening in China, Chinese brands are forever “value-oriented” brands.
> If people had no preference for quality or brands, why even buy Buick?
Because those Buick badged Daewoos are relatively cheap???
> Just buy a piece of shit Chery and forget about buying a Buick.
This is why Chery sold lots of QQs.
> American Chinese immigrants in the Chinatown all come from the same under-educated pool of laborers in China that fit in well with the chinatowns of yore. If you ever visit Taiwanese or HK neighborhoods in the west, the preference for quality is evident. Mercs, Lexus and BMWs everywhere even if they aren’t wealthy because of the perceived quality of such brands.
Those are obviously Americanized Chinese sharing “American” values. We are talking about consumption pattern of mainlanders having “Chinese” values.
> And hah, I just realized you actually said that Taiwanese electronics compete soley on price. I wonder why people lap up the Touch Diamond for $700 a piece when the iPhone 3g is selling for $200 USD.
Never heard of Touch Diamond.
> Hey I find it hard to believe too that our “Wall Street software developer” who prefer “quality” Korean products (sorry I just bumped my head against the wall, really sorry) usually visit Chinatown for “Cheap food” (well what does that say about him lol ).
A dollar saved today is worth $50 in your wallet when you retire.
Requirements of becoming a global auto export machine like Toyota(No. 1 automaker) and Hyundai(No. 5 automaker).
1. Monopolistic market share at home : Need the majority of home market share at home.
2. High-profit high end models : Need to sell at least one million high-end models that bring in $10,000 ~ $20,000 profit per car annually. This profit is necessary to finance R&D and global expansion.
3. A massive R&D complex with at least 10,000 experienced engineers.
4. Ownership of suppliers that provide half of car’s parts values.
5. Ability to quickly redirect tens of billions of dollars at will.
Toyota and Hyundai met the requirements 1 through 5, so they became world players. All the Chinese contenders, like Chery, Geely, Great wall, Brilliance, just to name a few do not meet these requirements, so it is unlikely you will see them maturing into global players able to compete with Japanese head to head in the US and Europe.
Hyundai as a world player? Perhaps domestically, perhaps even to a small extent in China, but internationally?
http://www.motortrader.com/27474/Hyundai-Kia-overtakes-Honda-in.ehtml
2007 Auto Company Sales Ranking
1. Toyota : 9.36 million sold
2. GM : 8.9 million sold
3. VW : 6.2 million sold
4. Ford : 6 million sold
5. Hyundai-Kia : 3.9 million sold
Ignoring other points but point no.2 sounds absolutely ridiculous especially for the korean.
Most of Korean models do not even touch $20 000 per unit so how the hell does it make $ 20 000 profit per car ?
Assuming that for each hyundai accent sold (around $13 000) , $ 10 000 profit is made then are you telling us here that it only cost $ 3 000 for hyundai to make each accent. Now that sounds very very stupid.
Hyundai’s main product line up consists of Azera, Veracruz, and Genesis. These cars fetch $35K ~ 60K in Korean market and make up approximately half the volume. Calculating the price difference of Genesis V6 in the US($35K) and in Korea($60K), you can easily see Hyundai’s stunning $20K per car profit they are pulling in even accounting for the fact that KDM models are loaded. This high profit margin is fueling Hyundai’s rapid global expansion. Just as Toyota’s dominance in JDM luxury segment funded Toyota’s global rise, Hyundai’s monopolistic dominance in KDM luxury segment(Which happens to be the biggest segment) is fueling Hyundai’s global rise.
This is why I find Chery unlikely to be a global player, because they don’t have a $10~20K per car profit generator to fund their expansion.
Guys,
Whether a Chinese car manufacturer will ever become number one in the world is a whole other discussion.
The point now is that, if any Chinese car manufacturer ever wants to sell any cars in Europe or US succesfully, they better show up with something that is original in design, well equiped, safe and price competative.
Some are already doing their own designs (SIAC) quite well, and others like Brilliance hire Pininfirana to design their cars.
And then some (Chery, BYD) don’t get it yet, or pretend they don’t get it. Or just plain stupid.
You will probably never buy a Chinese car, but other people will buy them when they become available. Just like people used to buy crap Japanese cars in the sixties and crap Korean cars in the eighties.
Love it or hate it, they will not stay crap for ever…
Interesting comments and good points on both sides. I think the insults were unnecessary though.
As for the ban I support the court’s decision. Force them to develop or go stagnant. Speaking of stagnant, I just got back to the US and noticed the US companies seemed to have copied their own designs from the late 60’s and 70’s. I used to love the old mustang but now you see it everywhere. A lot of the baby boomers enjoy being able to drive them but deep down I just feel cheated in some way.
OK , let’s not waste our time with that IHC. I don’t even know if he’s really Korean, if he is really Korean then I don’t know why he keeps on bragging about Japan as if he’s a Japanese.
But in some cases, I find it very weird that he knows about China’s culture especially the language and the places.
The more I read that guy’s posts, the more dents I find in his argument.
PS : Korea and Japan are not the same, please don’t group them together
Hey wasn’t it IHC that said : “even Chinese people shun their own cheap cars”
Now I ask : “then why Chery outsell the quality (sorry I could not help it ) Hyundai in Chinese market and even GM in some cases ?
Nevertheless I don’t think Hyundai will ever take on Chery in Chinese market.
To: I_Hate_China
I_Hate_China, you made some very intersting points, but could you chosen a name that is less offensive? People will be more receptive to your viewpoints if you had a better name.
thread locked for clean up. gone too far, as usual.